Compilation of requested balance changes for 1.2 skills

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Compilation of requested balance changes for 1.2 skills

Postby Ben » February 5th, 2017, 1:02 pm

Original Post: Adam's looking for some information, so get to it!

https://twitter.com/Ishmae1/status/828279577688494081

EDIT:
Ishmae1 wrote:Please feel free to discuss them here as well -- I'll be checking multiple places to gather up all the feedback.
Last edited by Ben on February 5th, 2017, 9:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Bloodpool » February 5th, 2017, 3:07 pm

I don't have a twitter. Someone please tweet to fix Necronimicon. It's an eviro skill that does not do what it says it does. There's reference to that in the old threads here. It works on Ice Sword and a few others, but does not remove the penalty effects of faith skills. Fix it, or at least update the language to not confuse people.

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Postby Ben » February 5th, 2017, 4:18 pm


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Postby Collected Dust » February 5th, 2017, 6:23 pm

I posted this to it:

Bigger Tweaks

Ricochet Laser - Can get abusive with Optimization. If player has to have max aura to use the skill like Aura Cannon, that might be a good enough fix. Another alternative maybe dropping it to 3 lasers instead of 4 and dropping the default strength to one damage. It would do less damage in one sitting and damage boosters get put in check a little more. (Have to test to be certain)

Vicious Balance - Caster loses one Level after everyone's aura is balanced.(So everyone else has one more aura than the caster) Reasoning this can make the caster think a little more about whether they should Vicious Balance. The losing 2 life penalty is good but losing one level will also make Vicious Balance users think more about whether they should use it. I think this is a conservative tweak.

Vibration Laser - Raising to 2 cost and maybe even going down to 2 strength might be justifiable. This skill is really abusive with manual aim at 1 cost and 3 damage starting point makes it worse. I've had more success hitting people in mid range with it twice than shooting a Vibration Blaster sometimes. Also a great close range attack with manual aim. Starting at 3 damage, people with either Trance, Tiger's Strength, or a Stimulate can down opponents and recharge their aura to continue spamming. (Maybe I'm being a little too harsh on it.) Just think it shouldn't be as powerful as it can be at non long range.

Making Quantum Decay 5 cost instead of 4 - I think making it 5 cost challenges the player more with the skill because they have to get to 5 aura and then they will get rounded down to 2 if they use it at that low a level. Optical's Full of level boosting moves so it shouldn't hurt them much, but challenges them and punishes them a little more if they aim for the lowest cost use of the skill. Not significant against Level Berserk/Boosters, but it would be significant against level amp/boost mine users. Could be wrong on this idea...

True Muramasa - Make penalty only 2 life loss instead of 3. Reasoning: Fire of Gehenna is cheaper and costs less to use for the same damage. Use True Muramasa twice and hit an opponent only once and you have taken the same amount of damage by default. It would give a Faith a strong close range move semi infinite yet still costly. Would have to test, but I think raising the life penalty 3 was too much of an over compensation from when it cost only 1 life.

Freeze Shot - Currently It can do damage if people boost their strength even though its a status skill. Guessing you could just negate the damage down to 0 or leave it in if you want a Psycho "attack" that can't be erased. Just pointing it out really...

Teleport / Teleportrap - Make them undodgeable by just jumping into the moves. I think it's dumb that players can jump into these 2 move to completely nullify the teleportation. I like that people can do that against Mobilize, but not against these as players have to actually be hit by them.

Trigger - Think about making it undodgable by jumps. If people jump into it they'll stop themselves from having their move triggered unless the move can be done in the air.



Infinite Stun Troll Fixing Tweaks

Chillbreeze - Something should be done about this skill. Maybe make it only work for 5 seconds. With 10 seconds it is not very hard to Annoying Gift it with Neutralization to a teammate to freeze the opposing team infinitely in the match with the way it works now. (Doesn't even need Optimization to work either) 4 aura and the 3 skills, possible on your first spawn of a match. Opponents can't even dodge it. Here's a demo of the freezing loop : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfOA2pyljKo

Angel's Breath - Make it 2 cost. This would largely stop it from infinitely stunning people with a stat when Optimization is out.

Optimization with Entangle or Pin Down - Entangle in a 2 school arsenal at default aura regen can infinitely stun someone once they are hit if Optimization is down. Pin Down in a single school or 2 school arsenal with +2 aura regen can also stun someone forever. Optimization with a time limit would eventually stop it, but there are probably other options as well, maybe something to limit repeated stun states after a significant time.



Smaller Impact Tweaks....

Necronomicon - Just fix the translation. Should only say: Remove Add effect on all attacks.

Timer Mine - Make 0 cost instead of 1. Reasoning: Remote Mine only costs 1 and is far better. Timer Mine at 0 would be interesting for 0 cost arsenals.

Change the World - Make 5 cost instead of 6. Reasoning minor tweak. Would cost less than Violent Change but still be an emarned amount to pay for using.

Bomb Shot - Make cost 5 instead of 6. Does not get affected by homing like Psycho Sniper does. Could be interesting to have it 2 cost with Optimization down. Single School arsenals might be able to get a little more out of it when it only costs 5.

Ice Storm - Make 3 use. Players might be more willing to use the skill.

Tremor - Make 3 use. Players might be more willing to use the skill.

Confusion Gas - Making it 3 use might lead to it getting used more. Perhaps too strong though. Raise cost to 3.

Swift Kick - make 5 damage instead of 4. Comboed with tiger's strength it could break more shields in Swift Punch style decks.

Withering Curse - Make 3 use, but costs 3. Might get a little more use. Might be a better move if it doesn't down opponents hit by it don't go into an automatic down state.

Brain Concussion - Make 3 use. Might get more usage out of it instead of being a one off move. Test to see if abusive.

Surprise Attack and Return - Maybe make 3 use.

Mind Reading - Let you hear opponents in private chat. Mwhahahah. I'm only kidding.

One other suggestion, change the translation for Change of the World: It says "Respawns new capsules for everyone" What it actually does is reshuffles spawned capsules into arsenal and then erases 3 RANDOM capsules from your arenal.(or whatever number was out on the field when Change the World was used)
Last edited by Collected Dust on April 21st, 2017, 6:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Ishmae1 » February 5th, 2017, 7:22 pm

Please feel free to discuss them here as well -- I'll be checking multiple places to gather up all the feedback.

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Postby Bregan123 » February 5th, 2017, 9:51 pm

Posted this in the Facebook Thread-

Comprehensive List- First off, I'm not always sure how I think they SHOULD be balanced/nerfed, but these are skills that should be looked at.

Fortress of Iron- I think it'd actually be pretty simple, just make it 4 for 6, right now it blocks too many blades without breaking, and with its erase it's too strong.

Reincarnation- Maybe make it 5 to keep or nerf the accuracy slightly.

Rock Shot- should just be 4 for 4 honestly

Vibration Laser is just too cheap and easy to use

Optimization- It just feels to catch all honestly, and it breaks a lot of other skills LIKE Vibration Laser, maybe make it reduce cost by 1/3 instead of 1/2
-Skills broken by Opti- Almost any Laser, Rail Gun, Rock Shot costs 1, Ricochet Laser, Photon Burst (basically renders all melee useless with Optimization down.) Holes and Rains.
-Optimization is just bad for balance in general. It's a bit of a "noob trap" in that you likely gave your opponent something broken too, and in almost all competitive settings it's immediately taken down when possible.

Gravity Blade is too weak/costly to really ever justify using- make it 4-5 (aura/Damage)

Any and all Jump and levitate skills are essentially useless because of slow cast times and slow ascent. They just make you a target and rarely if ever present any meaningful advantages.

Something similar can be said about all teleport skills.

The mist skills have never really packed a significant enough punch to be worth it. I mean, it's easily possible to make an arsenal so it'd work relying on mist skills... but why bother? They don't do enough extra to be worth it at all.

Trench Mortar is useless without some form of better accuracy, or also having accuracy at medium range in addition to long, or faster move rate.

Double Laser currently has no use when Triple laser exists.

Speaking of Triple Laser, that skill is broken as heck with any damage buffs. Hard to dodge and brutally strong with even 1 heat or a tiger's Strength.

Compressor and Memory of Battle while theoretically strong need better accuracy or faster travel time or they'll be forever condemned as "noob traps" Not to mention the spell size makes it impossible to cast either one from behind any form of cover. You have to stand out in the open and be a sitting duck with long cast times to use them at all.

Flash Hole is another must-have skill if you're running Faith. It fits any arsenal of any kind with Faith in it. Too strong.

Auto shields are another "noob trap" it's an interesting idea that could be made workable. Since they are all 1-time use or have health trade-offs basically they are all useless. A multi-use high cost one would be neat.

Relearn is another that might be worth looking at.

Holes in general are too easy to dodge, both for jumpers and cartwheelers.

Vacuum Wall is also really strong.

Brush defenses are wonky in multiplayer. Frequently too slow of a cast time to be useful, and they don't do the little stun animation against attackers like they do in single player. Makes them practically useless in competitive multiplayer.

Some environmentals border on the obstructively un-fun due to being too effective when hung. E.G. Forest Sanctuary and Memory Lapse. Consider giving them time limits or allow environmentals to be picked up in mid-air. Such as through the use of jump lifts or jump skills.

Mind reading is funny but useless really. Make it so you can see exactly what skills are in the opponents' hands and voila it's at least a little useful.

Tiger's Strength is another incredibly strong skill worth considering a tuning.

There's not a lot of reliable methods for healing, Healing Water is ideal, but that's really the only viable option unless you want to be a sitting duck or sacrifice all of your aura. Given that much of the Faith school relies on sacrificing health, you decrease the viability of some of those skills without a way to factor in potential healing.
-Maybe a status effect that heals you 1 health each time you hit someone.

Dash is another incredibly strong skill considering how useless other movement -type abilities like Jump or teleport are.

A lot of the extra online skills lack individual identity or impact-

Tornado only moves at a slower start than twister.

Knife Grind is just a weird Psycho Knife

Freeze Shot is nowhere near useful enough to justify using other than as a joke.

El Bomb is at best a fake-out shot for vibration blaster, AND you lose 1 level just for using it. Sadists need apply only.

Sorry, that's a bit exhaustive, but those are where I'd start if I were looking at game balance.

If you have any questions on if something is unclear feel free to reply/pm me.

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Postby ElD » February 6th, 2017, 8:30 pm

I guess this is a weird prospect for me because not *every* skill should be amazing and PvP-viable because PD does include a significant campaign element to it. I'm not going to waste my time complaining, for example, that you can literally run away from Rain of Rocks and never get hit by it.

With that in mind, here are some suggestions by skill type that would take skills that are difficult to play and make them more viable in a PvP scenario:

Environment
1. Vanishing Light/Scientism/Providence/Stagnant Air/Spiritual World [skills from ______ school can't be used for one minute) are all on one minute timers. This isn't a long enough time to generate good counterplay using these skills; increasing the timer (or getting rid of it altogether) might give these skills a little more life. Commandments (erase can't be used for one minute) might also fall into this camp.

2. Memory lapse (all skills become single-use) is too powerful as is because not enough skills have the "retain if you have enough Aura to use again" ability a la Reincarnation and Photon Barrier. Putting this on a long timer (or giving more skills the "Retain if you have enough Aura to use again" effect) would help rather than having to weather perpetual reincarnation spam.


Status
1. Some skills are on too short a timer to be useful (vast mayhem, vapor cloud, martial arts scroll, place of invisibility, venom drip). Increasing the timer on a case-by-case basis (30 seconds? 1 minute?) might give these skills a little more pop. Some skills are on great timers as is (Tiger's Strength especially).

2. Bump "Meditation" and "Ethos Inspiration" (+20% aura regen) up to +30%. I feel like aura regen is one of the least used stat buffs and giving it a little more of an edge might make it more popular.


Erase
1. Decrease the cost of Disremember from 8 to 6. Right now, it's only really viable if optimization is down. Obviously it can't go too inexpensive without being totally broken as one of the few permanent-use erase skills in the game, but since most shields still cost 2-3 aura it's easier to use and still easy to deal with.


That's what I've got, at any rate.


EDIT: Another idea, I guess, is to try and give skills that might be "redundant" as-is some flashy secondary abilities to make them a little more appetizing. For example, if throwing stone/stone shot don't get enough use relative to Rock Shot, maybe give one of them pierce or "inverts player's controls on impact" to see if you can goad people into using them more often.

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Postby Collected Dust » February 10th, 2017, 4:55 pm

I would go against Place of Invisibility going for a longer time. In a way you're actually boosting Optical Camo durations. Someone could fire a move that will hit an opponent and then immediately Place of Invisibility before the fired shot actually hits.

I could see Vast Mayhem getting a possibly longer time though or an extra use or 2. As it is, It's hard to pick Vast Mayhem over Confused Gravity, though it does let you use other Environmentals with forced inversion.

Martial Arts Scroll - I agree it is clunky and hard to justify using over Tiger's Strength. This might be too overboard but it might be cool if it was 0 cost. Maybe it just needs a longer duration. I feel like there is barely any time to use it and its animation ritual slows you down and makes it harder to reach the opponent who you need to hit within 5 seconds.. Maybe if it had an immediate effect like Optical Camo does when you flip it on?

Cooling - Maybe if it was made a 4 or 5 use skill? I could see considering it then. As it is, its accuracy pales compared to Interference which will erase 2 auara from someone. You could argue Cooling is unique as a Parabola erase, but I find it hard to justify using with only 3 uses. If you get 2 out of 4 or 5 of them to hit, it competes with Interference in effectiveness.

Power - I feel like this skill is a disappointing as it is basically Psycho Kinesis, but the objects it throws do less damage than Psycho Kinesis would. It's possible for it to do 0 damage with the objects you throw with it. It only does 0, 2, or 3 damage max with an object while Psycho Kinesis will do either 2, 4, or 5 damage. S

Irregular Rhythm - There's also something weird about Psycho Kinesis' programming. If you use it while Irregular Rhythm is out, your thrown objects will actually do more than normal. I wouldn't say that's a bad thing necessarily but the skill Power gets no boost from Irregular Rhythm though.

Heat Devil - Make 7-8 seconds long? That is still a small length, but might be just enough to make it more appealing.

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Postby ElD » February 16th, 2017, 2:24 pm

Collected Dust wrote:I would go against Place of Invisibility going for a longer time. In a way you're actually boosting Optical Camo durations. Someone could fire a move that will hit an opponent and then immediately Place of Invisibility before the fired shot actually hits.
Can you elaborate a little bit more on this? I don't really understand what you're getting at.

I guess tangentially related to this, I'll be the first to admit that getting the timers just right will ultimately come down to the feel of the game when they're used. Obviously if place of invisibility/optical camo has too long a timer, it would really change the balance of the game to favor things like capsule popping, erase, and global erase because combat would be far less powerful. But maybe more than 15 seconds (or whatever) might also be useful to increase the counterplay without throwing the entire thing out of balance.

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Postby Collected Dust » February 16th, 2017, 3:43 pm

ElD wrote:Can you elaborate a little bit more on this? I don't really understand what you're getting at.

I guess tangentially related to this, I'll be the first to admit that getting the timers just right will ultimately come down to the feel of the game when they're used. Obviously if place of invisibility/optical camo has too long a timer, it would really change the balance of the game to favor things like capsule popping, erase, and global erase because combat would be far less powerful. But maybe more than 15 seconds (or whatever) might also be useful to increase the counterplay without throwing the entire thing out of balance.


Basically I think that Place of Invisibility is sometimes brushed off as a kind of "harmless" skill, because everyone's invisible. My point would be to stress that whatever change is done in Place of Invisibility's time should be considered a change in Optical Camo users' time.

So if Place of Invisibility becomes something like 30 seconds long, you can basically get an Optical Camo that lasts 30 seconds. So if Optical Camo at 30 seconds is considered too long, then so should Place of Invisibility.

With extended times, In some ways it's comedically worse than Optical Camo, because you can either have a long lasting invisible team, or leave one person exposed to 3 invisible people for an extended length of time. Simple example would be teammate fires Dazzle and then you use Place of Invisibility. The Dazzle will still track and hit the open target, revealing him while everyone else remains Invisible.

A slightly larger time might be ok, but I think they need to keep in mind the harm it could do if it gets a much greater time.

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Postby ElD » February 20th, 2017, 11:59 pm

Collected Dust wrote:Basically I think that Place of Invisibility is sometimes brushed off as a kind of "harmless" skill, because everyone's invisible. My point would be to stress that whatever change is done in Place of Invisibility's time should be considered a change in Optical Camo users' time.
Oooooo OK.

Yeah, I guess I see where you're coming from a la abuse with 3x Place of Invisibility and 3x Optical Camo, although I don't know if you'd win any games running such a bizarre set. The two could also be on different length timers too, but this would need to be tested for sure.

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Postby it's revan » February 27th, 2017, 5:34 am

I'd say make all Enviros timed. End the scourge that is Optimization.

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Postby Bregan123 » March 1st, 2017, 10:14 pm

I agree with pretty much all of your points there Davio

As for Optimization- I think if there isn't a duration on ALL enviro's, Cut Opti down to reducing the cost of skills by 1/3 instead of 1/2.

So Rock shot instead of being 1 for 4 would be 2 for 4 or like Psycho blade would become 3 cost. It might be a bit wonky to determine exactly what a skill costs when opti is down, but I feel like it would be much healthier for game balance.

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Postby it's revan » March 2nd, 2017, 12:15 am

i recall there being a lot of bloat in the skill lists, lots of "this skill, but worse" and what not. should be looked at
when i have some free time i'll try to do something more comprehensive

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Postby Collected Dust » March 2nd, 2017, 1:33 pm

I won't make a post this nitpicky again here...

If you do make Confusion Gas or Withering Fang 3 use, I said bump them up to 3 cost. They might be more interesting to have at 2 cost for Reduce Entropy Shatter Eliminate decks. Of course if that's something you don't want 3 cost will avoid that.

Making Quantum Decay 5 cost instead of 4 - I think making it 5 cost challenges the player more with the skill because they have to get to 5 aura and then they will get rounded down to 2 if they use it at that low a level. Optical's Full of level boosting moves so it shouldn't hurt them much, but challenges them and punishes them a little more if they aim for the lowest cost use of the skill. Not significant against Level Berserk/Boosters, but it would be significant against level amp/boost mine users. Could be wrong on this idea...

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